about uniforms, dress codes, satisfiers, dissatisfiers, etc.
5:33 PM LAIN: yo
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: dude
5:34 PM medyo polo kaya tayo sa sat :)
LAIN: I'm trying to write an email about my proposed salary scale and rankings... commentan mo pag na-email ko... gawa ka outline ng bases to cover sa interview nila?
5:35 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: I think I should be able to. PHP MySQL developers right?
LAIN: yoko... para naman tayong di programmer nyan... dilbert principle pa rin... there has never been a study that has shown dressing better improves productivity... you should buy that book...
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: yup, but it can make us look more professional :)
LAIN: yup... commentan, dagdagan ko naman...
5:36 PM And what value is that? We'd be as professional even if we were wearing casual clothes
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: ay pano, so wait ko yung email mo then I have to give comments na?
5:37 PM I don't know. It depends on what everyone wants to decide should be the culture we want to build.
5:38 PM LAIN: di naman, kahit bukas comments... ginaganahan ko gawin salary scale and ranks e baka gusto mo naman gawin bases to cover for our interview
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: I'd rather go for the part that gives attention to such details as dress-code, etc...
LAIN: the culture I want is one of substance, not one that is superficial... looks professional nga, pero looks lang...
5:39 PM that's a one-off activity... attention to dress code... gusto mo ba pinoproblema ng programmers natin damit, kesa program nila?
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: it might not be possible to directly correlate corporate/professional dressing etc... but you'd generally see na it can impress clients with the level of discipline we have
5:40 PM LAIN: superficial pa rin... as a rule programmers never need to dress up... not relevant to their task
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: we have to raise that to everyone. :) the best culture is one of substance and at the same time a certain level of "sophistication" and elegance designed to make a good impression.
small details that count :)
IMHO
5:41 PM LAIN: small details that matter, not details that are superficial... Lyceum requires their teachers uniform, La Salle and UP doesn't... it doesn't really make a difference
5:42 PM if they want to dress up, sila, pero di dapat required kasi it has no real merit, none that has substance
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: again, IMHO, they are small details that can matter.... it may not be directly related to productivity, but it can have an impact to marketing... what if people wish to make site visits...
LAIN: ano ba yung IMHO?
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: in my humble opinion...
5:43 PM LAIN: if I was a client, I would think superficial yung approach...
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: if you were the client... some clients may not see it the same way as you though.... raise to the council :)
5:45 PM and besides, UP and La salle are totally different cases altogether... even google and microsoft, etc...
LAIN: if you want, I will conduct an actual survey... you just believe uniform will create a good impression for marketing, but there is absolutely no proof for that... why waste people's time for something that is not proven... bibigyan mo ba sila ng pang-clothing allowance?
5:46 PM the bottomeline is that belief has no proof and will just bother people... even silicon valley dresses down!
5:48 PM what would you tell an excellent programmer natin na gustong umalis dahil sa lilipatan nya same salary, perhaps bigger, pero dun kasi di sya required ng uniform?
5:50 PM remember we're not the highest paying job around... let them concentrate on what's important, benefit na yung wear anything you want
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: I'd still go with at least minimum prescribed attire... for example business casual
LAIN: what is business casual?
5:51 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: collared shirt/polo for men no jeans... no rubber shoes
for women same din, di dapat sleeveless then not sandals
5:52 PM LAIN: I think they should be allowed to wear any of those... no real reason why they shouldn't... mas modern nga kung ganun suot nila
5:54 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: let's just raise sa council. dress code up to that level is not too bad.
LAIN: I think its still a bother... I went through that, and I hated it, and I left the moment I got a better offer
5:55 PM bumili pa ko damit kahit wala na ko pera... hassle
wala naman real benefit
5:56 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: it's about the culture we want to build, what people we want to groom them into... eventually hi-caliber people who can make technical presentations to clients and exhude a professional atmosphere, from attitude to details such as clothing.
5:58 PM LAIN: I disagree... professional atmosphere has nothing to do with clothing... it about professional people and professional dealing, not what people wear... people can wear the best clothes and still be unprofessional... if you want to be modern, programmers shoould be allowed to wear anything they want
5:59 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: its a plus to be both truly professional in dealings and dress professionally as well
6:00 PM again, a question of what culture we wish to build. can't be decided by just you and me.
LAIN: I disagree. There is only a plus with superficial clients, not for deep ones... but it may be a minus for a programmer, and one reason for them to leave... I want to remove all unnecssary dissatisfiers from programmer
6:01 PM simple question: ano sasabihin mo sa excellent programmer natin na aalis for another company with same of better salary dahil dun walang uniform?
6:02 PM Baka ikaw kasi you like wearing fancy clothes... hindi lahat ng tao ganun... a person who wants to wear fancy clothes will wear them even if there is directive
*there is no directive
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: if he is excellent, and he deserves it, then make a counter offer. I don't think business casual is too much to ask
6:03 PM LAIN: for all my college life I did not even have leather shoes... baka dalawa lang may collar ko... kung applicant nyo ko, you would have lost me
6:04 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: I don't necessary like fancy clothes, my clothes aren't necessarily expensive. but I do wish to dress appropriately based on the context (office work, office attire).
6:05 PM LAIN: sa tingin mo ba kaya nating pantayan financial and other benefits na kayang i-offer ng other companies? I don't think its feasible for us... the least we can do for them is make them happy and remove dissatisfiers from them
that is your belief, that those are the clothes in proper context... no real proof that says ganun talaga dapat
6:08 PM if I would ask you to read stuff to understand, would you? If you would, just read these, to start: The Dilbert Principle, The Little Prince, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and The Two-Factor Theory
6:13 PM I do not believe money will motivate programmers enough. Give them a personally satisfying job. That will make them stay. If they were in it for the money, we CANNOT compete
6:15 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: so, basically what you are saying are people who do not agree nor are aware with the the "principles" in those writings you mentioned (let's limit it only to the point we are discussing now) are people who lack understanding and are people who cannot think intellectually? then let all successful people in successful firms like [large I.T. company] who were able to hire and retain good quality people, but at at the same time embraced this culture (on this partical "small" aspect we are arguing about) be called people who lack sense
LAIN: I suppose you're familiar with maslow's hierarchy of needs... at least read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Herzberg
6:16 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: and is there really a proof that majority of developers have that anti-preference to "dress-codes"
LAIN: why do people stay in [large I.T. company]? kaya ba nating ibigay ang mga yon?
even if they have no anti-prefence, magsusuot pa rin sila ng fancy... pero bakit mo isusubject ang may antipreference?
6:17 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: [large I.T. company] is not necessarily the highest paying firm. but there are other aspects that the firm is good, which makes people want to stay or at least get on board
6:18 PM LAIN: its not just the money, pero marami pa nga iba... can we give those? when we can, we can impose more stuff, habang hindi, give them the little stuff
I suppose you're familiar with maslow's hierarchy of needs... at least read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Herzberg
6:19 PM It's not Gospel truth, but you can agree... the way to motivate excellent programmers to stay with us is with stuff we can compete with, so let's compete... impressed nga ilan clients, naglipatan naman excellent programmers...
6:20 PM sabi ko sa yo, concern ko programmers... si [some guy] ang may concern sa clients
6:21 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: again, is it really that a big deal that majority of developers will move on to different work simply on the lack/basis of dress codes
LAIN: not majority, the excellent ones
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: all, in one way or the other should have a concern about the clients
6:22 PM always the case?
LAIN: would you kneel down and worship a client if he told you so?
6:23 PM no, but for those that are? are you saying its ok to lose a few excellent programmers? I think we should never give a reason for programmers to leave kung policies lang problema nila
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: that question doesn't make sense. will the client ask you to kneel down and worship him... his interest is that you can have a good relationship with him, gain his trust, and deliver what you promised for his money's worth
6:25 PM LAIN: if we tell the client that it's more modern to dress as you are, would he argue? What if baligtad, ang sabihin ng client ay yung sinasabi ko? The point is di naman iisa opinion din ng clients... some may have my opinion too... so di reasonable yung belief na yon... mas reasonable yung suggestion ko to remove possible dissatisfiers from our most important employees
6:26 PM Question: may matutuwa bang programmer pag sinabi mong may dress code sila?
It is not a satisfier, it is a dissatisfier
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: my hunch... I'd say only the extremest/most excellent/eccentric would probably have such disdain. in the first place I don't think we can yet afford such a guy. in the time that we can, then there's enough basis for him to put up with it.
6:27 PM LAIN: don't impose unnecessary rules na mahihirapan lang sila
6:28 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: but is it really that much of a hassle? is it really that much of a counter-motivator?
6:30 PM LAIN: out of [number of] applicants, how many would you think a dress code would be unnappealing? Just because they'll do it when you order them to, doesn't ean they like it, and unhappy employees won't have personal compassion for the company
6:31 PM and will most likely leave given another offer... a happy employee will stay at a lower paying job if they are content with it
6:32 PM if they are happy with it... but why would an employee stay at a company he or she is not completely happy with? Dressing is something you do everyday
6:34 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: again, what I'd like to challenge is, is it really that bad to have a dress-code (or even just a similitude to one, provisioning for "compromise") that people move in or out of a job simply based on that variable?
6:36 PM LAIN: one variable? you are assuming yun lang ang magiging dissatisfier sa atin... maraming ibang dissatisfiers beyond our control... let's at least control those that we can... now its dress code... what next? bawal mag-e-mail on the job?
6:37 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: I'd say focus on the top/primary satisfiers that is feasible to offer... focus on the top/primary dissatisfiers and get it out of the way... will dress code be on top on the dissatisfier list?
LAIN: sige nga, what dissatisfiers would you eliminate?
6:38 PM we agreed on the flexi time with core hours, effectively ridding one dissatisifer
besides, its not about which dissatisfier is on the top of the list, why not eliminate all that we can eliminate?
6:39 PM One of OUR biggest problems should be controlling programmer turnover... THAT will be a bigger problem!
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: primary... ineffective promotion/rewards and performance evaluation scheme and implementation... lack of direction/career path (does he/she have a future when he sticks with us)... inconsistencies in management (ineffective organization and leadership)...
6:40 PM lack of growth and personal development...
poor culture/corporate atmosphere
lack of trust and good working relationship with co-workers
6:41 PM LAIN: to be honest, can we truly eliminate those really? in reality, kahit anong ingat, us as management will still make mistakes... pero yung no dress code malinaw na absolute riddance of a dissatisfier... remember: quantifiable benefits
6:42 PM I don't think we can even eliminate some of those you mentioned... you mention career path... kung sobrang attractive ng career path, bakit di pa tyo nagreresign?
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: because for the sake of order, we must keep some for our selves... allow them to use computer/network resources any way they want because barring it all is a dissatisfier? I say it should be balanced... and it would generally tip already to their favor... is that too big to ask
6:43 PM we are way ahead of them... we're talking about people just starting out in IT...
6:44 PM LAIN: because barring it all is not possible. we give them the possible, don't promise the impossible. we must be realistic, not idealistic. You're thinking of the [number] right now, how about more experienced programmers? di ba tayo maghihire ng ganun?
labo naman kung may dresscode sila ngayon, tapos later wala yung iba
6:48 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: yes, even for bigger companies it is hard to bar all, but you none the less try to move in the direction to improve them
6:50 PM but that's why they ar e the ones who need primary focus... even those who spend sums of money to hire consultants just to improve those aspects of the firm still can't perfect it.
LAIN: yes, for example, bawal games and friendster are specific enough. Kung gusto mo youtube. Pero di mo mababawal email kasi minsan kelangan sa work yon, and di natin malalaman kung tama pa gamit nila email... minsan, ok lang naman a little personal email sa office, basta they meet their deadlines with quality
6:51 PM which one are you talking about now?
you improve everything, but do not rely on a promise of something that is idealistic, not realistic.
6:52 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: huh? still the same items... pseudo-dress code as suspect lesser dissatisfier and other weightier satisfiers that deserve higher priority and attention
6:55 PM what did I say is idealistic? which point did I raise was not realistic? about the only thing I remember saying is that these are the main things and they deserver higher priority and more attention. did I say we can perfect them? no, otherwise I would have contradicted what I have noted that even bigger firms can fail on that aspect. but if we don't give them higher focus, we're more likely not to hit closer to the mark.
6:57 PM LAIN: so what benefit do you communicate to the programmers? na dito consistent ang managment? na dito fair ang management? these are not quantifiable and madali nating ma-contradict sarili natin pagpumalpak tayo which might happen... pero sabihin mong walang uniform, definite and exact yon
6:58 PM we will work on all those, pero what will give programmers na definite, exact and quantifiable
6:59 PM - flexi time with core hours
- fast promotion to those deserving ( we can explain the system once we finalized )
- no uniform
7:00 PM actually we don't even need to say no uniform, we just don't say na meron dress code
7:01 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: you don't communicate consistency in management... they will see what we truly are whether we say one thing or another. however, we plan and communicate with one another to avoid such a pitfall... even before a small item escalates to a nightmare
7:03 PM it's not as easy to quantify everything... sometimes those that can't be quantified are the things that can matter most (i.e. company culture, adherance to ethics and company values, value for individual and concern for his welfare not just profit)
7:04 PM okies, during training, no dress code (which is before mag-end of month). that should give us enough time so that the whole council could decide
7:05 PM LAIN: ok. I really should conduct a study that determines the opinion of clients as to how much it affects their opinion... then again studies are just excellent estimates, but are estimates nonetheless
7:06 PM Are you making the bases to be covered... I'll be finishing the salary scale, ranking and promotion and will email... comment agad through here when I finish
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: no, not yet
7:07 PM LAIN: till what time ka ba dyan?
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: aalis na ako maya-maya. I can just read your email tomorrow.
LAIN: you can do bases tomorrow din... I'll try to make a few when I have time... pero will finish salary scale soon
7:08 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: okies
7:09 PM dude, how challenging is the ladder? how long/how many years will it take them to get to the top? give it too easy and it might not be as enticing...
7:11 PM LAIN: it won't be... but it's not time based, but regular performance based... eventually, what I see is they will quickly rise to their deserved salary scale, and will get stuck there for a long time... but will eventually get promoted again, after several months I guess... edit / comment mo na lang...
7:15 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: okidoks
LAIN: this conversation is too interesting. I want to post it in [sic]
7:16 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: he he :) nice chat.
LAIN: very informative
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: gusto mo ipabasa nila sa kanila eh. less trouble discussing points... i think the primary are all here.
then they make their opinion. I go for kung ano man maagreehan ng lahat
7:17 PM LAIN: maraming mapupulot siguro readers... yes, its saved in my gmail... pwede pabasa na lang natin sa board
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: (even if it's against mine :))
how long was that, like almost two hours... he he
7:18 PM LAIN: although wag dapat ganun... remember my suggestion? anyone can counter an opinion, and the counter must be addressed and it must be proven which is best... di naman porke majority thinks its right, it already is... I think that is the best way...
it was just one hour, a little over, I think
10 minutes
7:28 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: yup. but this one is a little bit tricky. it has something to do also with the culture and/or image we want to build. anyways, bahala na, we can just come up with criteria/pros-cons during deliberation.
7:30 PM LAIN: yes, deliberate na lang uli after ipabasa sa kanila
7:31 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: ey dude, I'd going out in a few
tom na lang lit
7:32 PM LAIN: ok, check na lang your mail tomorrow and chat or email before 1pm sana
830 sat mrt ayala tayo kita?
will you have a cel?
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: yup. I believe I will
have a mobile
7:33 PM LAIN: ok. try ko tapusin akin, email ko later if I do... wanna go home na din
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: yup, ey dude, gtg na :) chat tom
7:34 PM LAIN: ok, bye God bless
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: dude
5:34 PM medyo polo kaya tayo sa sat :)
LAIN: I'm trying to write an email about my proposed salary scale and rankings... commentan mo pag na-email ko... gawa ka outline ng bases to cover sa interview nila?
5:35 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: I think I should be able to. PHP MySQL developers right?
LAIN: yoko... para naman tayong di programmer nyan... dilbert principle pa rin... there has never been a study that has shown dressing better improves productivity... you should buy that book...
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: yup, but it can make us look more professional :)
LAIN: yup... commentan, dagdagan ko naman...
5:36 PM And what value is that? We'd be as professional even if we were wearing casual clothes
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: ay pano, so wait ko yung email mo then I have to give comments na?
5:37 PM I don't know. It depends on what everyone wants to decide should be the culture we want to build.
5:38 PM LAIN: di naman, kahit bukas comments... ginaganahan ko gawin salary scale and ranks e baka gusto mo naman gawin bases to cover for our interview
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: I'd rather go for the part that gives attention to such details as dress-code, etc...
LAIN: the culture I want is one of substance, not one that is superficial... looks professional nga, pero looks lang...
5:39 PM that's a one-off activity... attention to dress code... gusto mo ba pinoproblema ng programmers natin damit, kesa program nila?
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: it might not be possible to directly correlate corporate/professional dressing etc... but you'd generally see na it can impress clients with the level of discipline we have
5:40 PM LAIN: superficial pa rin... as a rule programmers never need to dress up... not relevant to their task
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: we have to raise that to everyone. :) the best culture is one of substance and at the same time a certain level of "sophistication" and elegance designed to make a good impression.
small details that count :)
IMHO
5:41 PM LAIN: small details that matter, not details that are superficial... Lyceum requires their teachers uniform, La Salle and UP doesn't... it doesn't really make a difference
5:42 PM if they want to dress up, sila, pero di dapat required kasi it has no real merit, none that has substance
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: again, IMHO, they are small details that can matter.... it may not be directly related to productivity, but it can have an impact to marketing... what if people wish to make site visits...
LAIN: ano ba yung IMHO?
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: in my humble opinion...
5:43 PM LAIN: if I was a client, I would think superficial yung approach...
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: if you were the client... some clients may not see it the same way as you though.... raise to the council :)
5:45 PM and besides, UP and La salle are totally different cases altogether... even google and microsoft, etc...
LAIN: if you want, I will conduct an actual survey... you just believe uniform will create a good impression for marketing, but there is absolutely no proof for that... why waste people's time for something that is not proven... bibigyan mo ba sila ng pang-clothing allowance?
5:46 PM the bottomeline is that belief has no proof and will just bother people... even silicon valley dresses down!
5:48 PM what would you tell an excellent programmer natin na gustong umalis dahil sa lilipatan nya same salary, perhaps bigger, pero dun kasi di sya required ng uniform?
5:50 PM remember we're not the highest paying job around... let them concentrate on what's important, benefit na yung wear anything you want
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: I'd still go with at least minimum prescribed attire... for example business casual
LAIN: what is business casual?
5:51 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: collared shirt/polo for men no jeans... no rubber shoes
for women same din, di dapat sleeveless then not sandals
5:52 PM LAIN: I think they should be allowed to wear any of those... no real reason why they shouldn't... mas modern nga kung ganun suot nila
5:54 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: let's just raise sa council. dress code up to that level is not too bad.
LAIN: I think its still a bother... I went through that, and I hated it, and I left the moment I got a better offer
5:55 PM bumili pa ko damit kahit wala na ko pera... hassle
wala naman real benefit
5:56 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: it's about the culture we want to build, what people we want to groom them into... eventually hi-caliber people who can make technical presentations to clients and exhude a professional atmosphere, from attitude to details such as clothing.
5:58 PM LAIN: I disagree... professional atmosphere has nothing to do with clothing... it about professional people and professional dealing, not what people wear... people can wear the best clothes and still be unprofessional... if you want to be modern, programmers shoould be allowed to wear anything they want
5:59 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: its a plus to be both truly professional in dealings and dress professionally as well
6:00 PM again, a question of what culture we wish to build. can't be decided by just you and me.
LAIN: I disagree. There is only a plus with superficial clients, not for deep ones... but it may be a minus for a programmer, and one reason for them to leave... I want to remove all unnecssary dissatisfiers from programmer
6:01 PM simple question: ano sasabihin mo sa excellent programmer natin na aalis for another company with same of better salary dahil dun walang uniform?
6:02 PM Baka ikaw kasi you like wearing fancy clothes... hindi lahat ng tao ganun... a person who wants to wear fancy clothes will wear them even if there is directive
*there is no directive
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: if he is excellent, and he deserves it, then make a counter offer. I don't think business casual is too much to ask
6:03 PM LAIN: for all my college life I did not even have leather shoes... baka dalawa lang may collar ko... kung applicant nyo ko, you would have lost me
6:04 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: I don't necessary like fancy clothes, my clothes aren't necessarily expensive. but I do wish to dress appropriately based on the context (office work, office attire).
6:05 PM LAIN: sa tingin mo ba kaya nating pantayan financial and other benefits na kayang i-offer ng other companies? I don't think its feasible for us... the least we can do for them is make them happy and remove dissatisfiers from them
that is your belief, that those are the clothes in proper context... no real proof that says ganun talaga dapat
6:08 PM if I would ask you to read stuff to understand, would you? If you would, just read these, to start: The Dilbert Principle, The Little Prince, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and The Two-Factor Theory
6:13 PM I do not believe money will motivate programmers enough. Give them a personally satisfying job. That will make them stay. If they were in it for the money, we CANNOT compete
6:15 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: so, basically what you are saying are people who do not agree nor are aware with the the "principles" in those writings you mentioned (let's limit it only to the point we are discussing now) are people who lack understanding and are people who cannot think intellectually? then let all successful people in successful firms like [large I.T. company] who were able to hire and retain good quality people, but at at the same time embraced this culture (on this partical "small" aspect we are arguing about) be called people who lack sense
LAIN: I suppose you're familiar with maslow's hierarchy of needs... at least read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Herzberg
6:16 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: and is there really a proof that majority of developers have that anti-preference to "dress-codes"
LAIN: why do people stay in [large I.T. company]? kaya ba nating ibigay ang mga yon?
even if they have no anti-prefence, magsusuot pa rin sila ng fancy... pero bakit mo isusubject ang may antipreference?
6:17 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: [large I.T. company] is not necessarily the highest paying firm. but there are other aspects that the firm is good, which makes people want to stay or at least get on board
6:18 PM LAIN: its not just the money, pero marami pa nga iba... can we give those? when we can, we can impose more stuff, habang hindi, give them the little stuff
I suppose you're familiar with maslow's hierarchy of needs... at least read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Herzberg
6:19 PM It's not Gospel truth, but you can agree... the way to motivate excellent programmers to stay with us is with stuff we can compete with, so let's compete... impressed nga ilan clients, naglipatan naman excellent programmers...
6:20 PM sabi ko sa yo, concern ko programmers... si [some guy] ang may concern sa clients
6:21 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: again, is it really that a big deal that majority of developers will move on to different work simply on the lack/basis of dress codes
LAIN: not majority, the excellent ones
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: all, in one way or the other should have a concern about the clients
6:22 PM always the case?
LAIN: would you kneel down and worship a client if he told you so?
6:23 PM no, but for those that are? are you saying its ok to lose a few excellent programmers? I think we should never give a reason for programmers to leave kung policies lang problema nila
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: that question doesn't make sense. will the client ask you to kneel down and worship him... his interest is that you can have a good relationship with him, gain his trust, and deliver what you promised for his money's worth
6:25 PM LAIN: if we tell the client that it's more modern to dress as you are, would he argue? What if baligtad, ang sabihin ng client ay yung sinasabi ko? The point is di naman iisa opinion din ng clients... some may have my opinion too... so di reasonable yung belief na yon... mas reasonable yung suggestion ko to remove possible dissatisfiers from our most important employees
6:26 PM Question: may matutuwa bang programmer pag sinabi mong may dress code sila?
It is not a satisfier, it is a dissatisfier
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: my hunch... I'd say only the extremest/most excellent/eccentric would probably have such disdain. in the first place I don't think we can yet afford such a guy. in the time that we can, then there's enough basis for him to put up with it.
6:27 PM LAIN: don't impose unnecessary rules na mahihirapan lang sila
6:28 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: but is it really that much of a hassle? is it really that much of a counter-motivator?
6:30 PM LAIN: out of [number of] applicants, how many would you think a dress code would be unnappealing? Just because they'll do it when you order them to, doesn't ean they like it, and unhappy employees won't have personal compassion for the company
6:31 PM and will most likely leave given another offer... a happy employee will stay at a lower paying job if they are content with it
6:32 PM if they are happy with it... but why would an employee stay at a company he or she is not completely happy with? Dressing is something you do everyday
6:34 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: again, what I'd like to challenge is, is it really that bad to have a dress-code (or even just a similitude to one, provisioning for "compromise") that people move in or out of a job simply based on that variable?
6:36 PM LAIN: one variable? you are assuming yun lang ang magiging dissatisfier sa atin... maraming ibang dissatisfiers beyond our control... let's at least control those that we can... now its dress code... what next? bawal mag-e-mail on the job?
6:37 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: I'd say focus on the top/primary satisfiers that is feasible to offer... focus on the top/primary dissatisfiers and get it out of the way... will dress code be on top on the dissatisfier list?
LAIN: sige nga, what dissatisfiers would you eliminate?
6:38 PM we agreed on the flexi time with core hours, effectively ridding one dissatisifer
besides, its not about which dissatisfier is on the top of the list, why not eliminate all that we can eliminate?
6:39 PM One of OUR biggest problems should be controlling programmer turnover... THAT will be a bigger problem!
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: primary... ineffective promotion/rewards and performance evaluation scheme and implementation... lack of direction/career path (does he/she have a future when he sticks with us)... inconsistencies in management (ineffective organization and leadership)...
6:40 PM lack of growth and personal development...
poor culture/corporate atmosphere
lack of trust and good working relationship with co-workers
6:41 PM LAIN: to be honest, can we truly eliminate those really? in reality, kahit anong ingat, us as management will still make mistakes... pero yung no dress code malinaw na absolute riddance of a dissatisfier... remember: quantifiable benefits
6:42 PM I don't think we can even eliminate some of those you mentioned... you mention career path... kung sobrang attractive ng career path, bakit di pa tyo nagreresign?
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: because for the sake of order, we must keep some for our selves... allow them to use computer/network resources any way they want because barring it all is a dissatisfier? I say it should be balanced... and it would generally tip already to their favor... is that too big to ask
6:43 PM we are way ahead of them... we're talking about people just starting out in IT...
6:44 PM LAIN: because barring it all is not possible. we give them the possible, don't promise the impossible. we must be realistic, not idealistic. You're thinking of the [number] right now, how about more experienced programmers? di ba tayo maghihire ng ganun?
labo naman kung may dresscode sila ngayon, tapos later wala yung iba
6:48 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: yes, even for bigger companies it is hard to bar all, but you none the less try to move in the direction to improve them
6:50 PM but that's why they ar e the ones who need primary focus... even those who spend sums of money to hire consultants just to improve those aspects of the firm still can't perfect it.
LAIN: yes, for example, bawal games and friendster are specific enough. Kung gusto mo youtube. Pero di mo mababawal email kasi minsan kelangan sa work yon, and di natin malalaman kung tama pa gamit nila email... minsan, ok lang naman a little personal email sa office, basta they meet their deadlines with quality
6:51 PM which one are you talking about now?
you improve everything, but do not rely on a promise of something that is idealistic, not realistic.
6:52 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: huh? still the same items... pseudo-dress code as suspect lesser dissatisfier and other weightier satisfiers that deserve higher priority and attention
6:55 PM what did I say is idealistic? which point did I raise was not realistic? about the only thing I remember saying is that these are the main things and they deserver higher priority and more attention. did I say we can perfect them? no, otherwise I would have contradicted what I have noted that even bigger firms can fail on that aspect. but if we don't give them higher focus, we're more likely not to hit closer to the mark.
6:57 PM LAIN: so what benefit do you communicate to the programmers? na dito consistent ang managment? na dito fair ang management? these are not quantifiable and madali nating ma-contradict sarili natin pagpumalpak tayo which might happen... pero sabihin mong walang uniform, definite and exact yon
6:58 PM we will work on all those, pero what will give programmers na definite, exact and quantifiable
6:59 PM - flexi time with core hours
- fast promotion to those deserving ( we can explain the system once we finalized )
- no uniform
7:00 PM actually we don't even need to say no uniform, we just don't say na meron dress code
7:01 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: you don't communicate consistency in management... they will see what we truly are whether we say one thing or another. however, we plan and communicate with one another to avoid such a pitfall... even before a small item escalates to a nightmare
7:03 PM it's not as easy to quantify everything... sometimes those that can't be quantified are the things that can matter most (i.e. company culture, adherance to ethics and company values, value for individual and concern for his welfare not just profit)
7:04 PM okies, during training, no dress code (which is before mag-end of month). that should give us enough time so that the whole council could decide
7:05 PM LAIN: ok. I really should conduct a study that determines the opinion of clients as to how much it affects their opinion... then again studies are just excellent estimates, but are estimates nonetheless
7:06 PM Are you making the bases to be covered... I'll be finishing the salary scale, ranking and promotion and will email... comment agad through here when I finish
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: no, not yet
7:07 PM LAIN: till what time ka ba dyan?
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: aalis na ako maya-maya. I can just read your email tomorrow.
LAIN: you can do bases tomorrow din... I'll try to make a few when I have time... pero will finish salary scale soon
7:08 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: okies
7:09 PM dude, how challenging is the ladder? how long/how many years will it take them to get to the top? give it too easy and it might not be as enticing...
7:11 PM LAIN: it won't be... but it's not time based, but regular performance based... eventually, what I see is they will quickly rise to their deserved salary scale, and will get stuck there for a long time... but will eventually get promoted again, after several months I guess... edit / comment mo na lang...
7:15 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: okidoks
LAIN: this conversation is too interesting. I want to post it in [sic]
7:16 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: he he :) nice chat.
LAIN: very informative
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: gusto mo ipabasa nila sa kanila eh. less trouble discussing points... i think the primary are all here.
then they make their opinion. I go for kung ano man maagreehan ng lahat
7:17 PM LAIN: maraming mapupulot siguro readers... yes, its saved in my gmail... pwede pabasa na lang natin sa board
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: (even if it's against mine :))
how long was that, like almost two hours... he he
7:18 PM LAIN: although wag dapat ganun... remember my suggestion? anyone can counter an opinion, and the counter must be addressed and it must be proven which is best... di naman porke majority thinks its right, it already is... I think that is the best way...
it was just one hour, a little over, I think
10 minutes
7:28 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: yup. but this one is a little bit tricky. it has something to do also with the culture and/or image we want to build. anyways, bahala na, we can just come up with criteria/pros-cons during deliberation.
7:30 PM LAIN: yes, deliberate na lang uli after ipabasa sa kanila
7:31 PM [ALAIN'S FRIEND]: ey dude, I'd going out in a few
tom na lang lit
7:32 PM LAIN: ok, check na lang your mail tomorrow and chat or email before 1pm sana
830 sat mrt ayala tayo kita?
will you have a cel?
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: yup. I believe I will
have a mobile
7:33 PM LAIN: ok. try ko tapusin akin, email ko later if I do... wanna go home na din
[ALAIN'S FRIEND]: yup, ey dude, gtg na :) chat tom
7:34 PM LAIN: ok, bye God bless
posted by Alain at
3:41 PM
